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Magicians Podcast - Magicians Talking Magic

Two magicians talk magic news, performance advice, industry struggles and everything magical. A podcast for students and fans of the art of magic. Magicians Talking Magic a podcast for magicians.

Click here to visit the official episode page on Magician's Masterclass:


Hosted by Ryan Joyce and Graeme Reed

In this first episode of Magicians Talking Magic, full-time magicians Ryan Joyce and Graeme Reed talk about the recent tragedy of an Indian magician who was killed performing a dangerous magic stunt, late-nineties magic, magic festival appearing in Ontario Canada, and we answer the question do magicians need a logo?

Touring Tricks Podcast: magic-masterclass.com/podcast

Episode page: https://www.magic-masterclass.com/post/magician-talking-magic-e01

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Magicians Talking Magic

Touring Tricks Podcast

Episode 01


Graeme Reed: And he's got the sheet and he goes, it's going to happen anytime now. And he pulls the sheet, nothing happens. It gets out in the street and go. And then like jungle music plays and roars. And he's like, ah. And he pulls the sheet off and now all his suit is ripped up and he's got a tiger tail in his mouth. Oh my God, I've never seen. And He goes, ladies and gentlemen and mandating tiger, you've never seen that. Never seen this. That's like his, like one of his signature bits. And before he did that, he had produced himself in drag. Oh, I never seen this course. The one I remember is the floating girl up to the ceiling and the smash as she falls down. That was epic. Fielding West is amazing. He's so creative. He's so creative. And I do put this as a fair categorization. I feel like Nathan Burton, I would also put it in that same kind of just really creative out of the box kind of thinkers, live action cartoons almost. It's like, yeah. So that's the gesture and Amazing Johnathan and even a little bit David Williamson. Yes. Oh yeah. That's larger than life. Like real life cartoon people. Right. Larger than life. That's the best way to put it. Yeah. Well, what do you think of the word to Duh tonight? Yeah, I like tonight I like to diesel.

Ryan Joyce: That's trending right now on the magic Twitter trending. It should be, if it's not too dussel that double low or is it a, it's totally a devil. Oh, of course it is.

Graeme Reed: Yeah. T double low d zed o right to d l. That's how I spell it Tazoodle.

Ryan Joyce: I was flipping through while you couldn't miss the news. Uh, I was flipping through vanish magazine, but I also saw like in my news feed, it was everywhere. The Indian magician that was killed doing his stunt. What do you think?

Graeme Reed: Um, unfortunate. Super unfortunate, but they're seeing, I don't know. Um, do you find there is a new, uh, like an influx of magicians doing dangerous stuff?

Ryan Joyce: Yeah. Attention getting it is they, I think it's an inappropriate exchange and they think it's attention equals danger equals stardom. But in reality it's just stupid.

Graeme Reed: All unfair. Super unfortunate incident. Yeah, of course. It's very tragic and super unfortunate, really unfortunate. But I find like, and I know I went through this myself in the past few years and it's, and I know that you see a lot of these tricks advertised too and you'll see them on America's got talent, but the dangerous stunts and these dangerous tricks and there is a lot of them that are you can do then completely safe or maybe safe with 10 10

Ryan Joyce: right. Well you get attention. It's a, it is a demanding when you see somebody said themselves on fire or whatever, for sure. I mean it's hard not to look away and that's why they do it. I get, I totally get it, but I, for me the attention has never been worth that much risk. Not only for me but like my family and everybody else said they had demand for attention has never been that high.

Graeme Reed: Now for me, like growing up, watching a lot of like night, late nineties specials. I remember they were a lot of those extreme dangerous, the Dean Gunnerson oh my gosh. Didn't he hang over the Hoover dam without like, I get nightmares. Just different recreating that thought am I couldn't watch that special because of those things that and like and, and crocodiles and anything that's electric in nature plus, right? Yeah. He's intense. And there was another guy that like did a full steel cage out of like a

Ryan Joyce: Richard Richard Gal are Richard Gallop. Yes. Yes, yes. Yeah. That's the one. Yeah, he was great. I enjoyed it because special, it was really cutting edge, those neon light bulb thing that he's doing. I love that piece. That was great. And He um, yeah, he did several pieces of magic that I really loved, but there was that one. I figure if I rewound the tape more than any, it would be that one illusion that was with the light tubes and it had nothing to do with the danger. I just really loved that. And it was a combination. The music was great. He had great music choices through those neon tubes and she van, it was just a great moment that he owns it. Right. And the lighting of the smoke, he really sold that look, that was nineties magic to it, to a t

Graeme Reed: 100%. Nineties magic, late nineties, early two thousands of magic. Yup. Most extreme magic. Most dangerous magic. Right? It's extreme. Yeah. Yeah. And you'd even have like amazing Jonathan and things like that on there too. Right? So I've asked for the gesture and I think, um, the man eating tiger with the cloth, um Oh, oh boy. You know, he like does the sheet with his own bed sheets that are branded with his own name on it. And then he produces a man eating tiger and it's himself with his clothes all wrapped up and he's got the tiger tail on his mouth.

Ryan Joyce: I feel like this is a Dirk Arthur thing. I, but this is not

Graeme Reed: Garth or no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Comic Magician. And he had originally produced himself in drag. I just can't think of his name right now.

Ryan Joyce: So would you do anything dangerous? Did you have any fantasies of doing anything?

Graeme Reed: I used to do dangerous things in my show. I would do smash and stab and I had broken glass in my show and have since pulled all the dangerous things out, uh, from doing comedy shows. Uh, I noticed some of the audience would leave during the shows and then I, I asked them after like why they left and even some of the comics will leave because they didn't want to see that they liked the magic. They wanted to experience where they didn't want to see the dangerous pits. Right. So why would you do something where someone would leave? I don't know. Like I get that like at first I thought it was edgy and conversational and like, oh, this will make, you know, but then isn't that exciting if people, I didn't want to make people leave. That's not part of what I want to do with my own brand and things like that. So I, I worked for some people. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Let me just, so people can really motivate that. I'm not one of those people, so I avoid it at all costs through. Yeah. Yeah. I look 10 years younger than I am, so,

Ryan Joyce: right. You didn't have like tactics and it can't grow a beard. So it's, you could moto sage there. They're like, what is this birthday guy going to do for me? Yeah. What is kid wizard doing? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not anything I'm, I mean as a kid of course it was fun to, to watch it in like sort of to think about it cause that w that was my early on sort of daydreaming days was all the big grander stuff. Right? Like that nowadays you don't even know. It's not even in the world of imagination is so, so outdated. But it sure gets you thinking in the unique ways when you have to manipulate like different, the size things other than, I mean it's just a fascinating as someone who enjoys creative problem solving in any regard, I thought illusions are a really fun way to sort of solve unique problems and that's gone. That's gone completely. And that's fine. God, the luggage man, the luggage on that with lug that around for.

Graeme Reed: So I think like I've seen some more, I've seen a lot more water torture things and even like ax throwing things. And stuff like that from America's got down. So I think there is way more dangerous stunts going on. Do you think there's any more influx going on for illusions right now?

Ryan Joyce: I don't see it now. I don't see it now. I, um, I really don't. I don't, I don't think, I don't know if it has a place anymore. I mean, there's a place for it in big shows. There's definitely a, an element for touring shows. But is it ever going to be like, you know, stay tuned for the next grand illusion show on the no, that was in the, I don't think so. It's not this era of storytelling. Magic is simplified dramatically. We're, I mean, look at the Netflix special that we both have watched. It didn't binge as each one, you know, simplifying everything. Of course Marie Quando guys, what I'm referencing, you know. So I think magic has also simplified it. We've also, I would argue that we've progressed dramatically over the last handful of years, of course, because of videos specifically. That's the one tool is it's pushed us so much further. And what audiences want to see is smaller, intimate reactions.

Graeme Reed: Yeah. I think from doing magic, like I do a lot of restaurant magic up, close strolling, things like that. Uh, I find I get through actions from people that they're really excited to see like a, you know, a color change or, you know, just a simple, basic magic term up close because they feel like, you know, they're being deceived with TV or something is on stage. Possibly they're being deceived. Like there's the atrics to it. Maybe that guy, I don't know that guy. But here if you're just, you know, you and their family and like, I didn't take the kids out back and give them a couple nickels and prearrange some stuff.

Ryan Joyce: Right. Yeah. Did you notice a change when like when Shin Lim one for example, where you working in restaurants before and after?

Graeme Reed: I was working in restaurants, jury like way before and during, and I noticed a huge change. I remember when I first started in restaurants, people would, I'd be like, Oh, you gotta be in Vegas Someday. You're going to be in Vegas, and then it switched to, Oh, you can be on America's got talent or sometimes fool us, so you're gonna be on foolish. And then now everyone knows Shin limbs name, which is pretty incredible because most people only knew like Copperfield, David Blaine or criss. Right. And sometimes they'd be guessing at like what those names were. Right. Um, but now you have Shin Limb. Like people know who Shin Lim is. That's really good for magic and it's close up magic that he does too. So as a restaurant performer, like strolling magician, that's really positive when you can do, um, you know, kind of flashy,

Ryan Joyce: definitely. He got really makes it, he's elder showmanship to the tee, like he for surely wants to play up all the theatrical moments of it. And that's what makes it so unique and so special. And so he kind of blended two worlds, the closeup magic and like the theatrical as a Hans clog fan balloon. Yay. He's the hands. Yeah. Who is kind of a show coming to Vegas? I saw that news somewhere. I think it was on iTricks. Yeah. Yeah, he's a, he's got a show coming too, I think you, Oh God, I will, I can't remember. But one of those fancy thing, cons, collect show takes probably, oh yeah. Well there's just one whole truck for fans. I just want to, what I've heard Dan trap, here's one illusion was probably the most piece of magic that I watched over and over and over again. The fight, the cage, the fire spiker one. But yeah, with a

Graeme Reed: conceited. I think if you look at, um, if you look at illusionists, right? And like you're supposed to tell a story in maybe those three to four minutes that you've performed maybe like, you know, six minutes and he performed the illusion, right? He's a really good storyteller

Ryan Joyce: and he does it fast. And that's the biggest takeaway from what? Like if you look at the progress, the magic is taken. It's like removed all the fat and that's what he did like or immediately. That's why illusions, he made illusion so great cause all that Pazazz in Razzle Dazzle, in distraction. He just kinda move on. Let's get to the good stuff and go. He's alive.

Graeme Reed: Romance novel. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And any moment you could freeze frame it, it would be the cover of a book. It's constantly producing women and putting them into torture and producing maybe two women. And what do you do with two women? You get three women and seen. Yeah.

Ryan Joyce: Amazing. Yeah. I shaped my childhood watching Hahn's clock for sure. I want it to be on his clock.

Graeme Reed: Hans clock and see fantasy. Yeah. I sign other news. America's got talents really high right now, right? Oh yes. America's got talent season. It sure is. And Medians in there too. Canadians and friends of the show. Absolutely show. But Lisa, Nick Wallace was on America's got talent. Mister was really so great. Yeah. Yeah. The clip was really solid. Two really good reactions from all the judges and everything like that. It looks like he should do really well in the show, hopefully, you know?

Ryan Joyce: Yeah, I hope so guys, she's, he's got something unique about him and it's really creepy and fun. It's so, it's so unique, like Taco with somebody that has really owned his personality and his character and he fooled Penn and teller too with the cookies on the streak. Yeah.

Graeme Reed: I got to eat cookies with them at the staircase and Hamilton when he doing a show actually. Oh, that's fun. Yeah. The first time I kind of met him, uh, I caught his monkey. Oh, oh yeah. And then I got to eat cookies with them and go on like a, an adventure, which was really fun. Uh, he gave me an option to share if you've never seen a show, like he has an, the final outcome of the show is this kind of mystery, this mysterious box that he's been talking about. And at the end of the show, you get a choice about it if you're involved. And I got the choice and I feel like I gave the audience the most mysterious choice to give their characters. So you had a viewer, a good volunteer? I think I was a good volunteer. Either helps. Yeah. I hope

Ryan Joyce: most magicians are good volunteers. Right. I saw his show early, early, early on, and I don't know where in the evolution of his show he was, but he was really great. Then this was at I believe, fringe festival and Hamilton. And even like back then it was just, you could tell he was gonna he was gonna be something special. So yeah, I'm so happy for his, yeah, his success. I'm curious to see how he does. And Michael Paul is on a gt as well. Michael Paul who? Michael Paul down to Fergus. Yes. Last year I met Michael Paul on ships randomly. We were both waiting to get into a venue and that sparked a friendship that's literally like one of our closest friends. And so we you're referencing as you know, as we brought up Michael Paul for I filming here too, we started this series called wonder town and we're going to have digital downloads and everything. It's going to be quite great. And so he's actually, you can see his trailer now. We'll put that in the show notes. He's, um, he's a ventriloquist and a comedian, but he's both of those things he excels at, like he can go out and be just this, this, you know, guy who can rag on everybody in the audience and then go up on stage immediately and, and do a perfect ventriloquist bit. You know, in technique and in comedic fashion. It just owns the room. Like once my, once I

know that Michael Paul's on the ship, I know how high I have to work hard. I work that's so, I just adore him and he's brilliant and he's so creative and when you see his resume, you know what he's done, it's really quite great. So we brought him here to do that filming, as you know. And so that wonder town special is going to be out, but I hope he does. I hope he goes far and IGT. That's really, really exciting stuff. We'll put his, his video and the links as well. Put both of them in.

Graeme Reed: Yeah. And then also both acts coming up like in the fall. Right. Exciting news too. They're in the fall, right?

Ryan Joyce: Yeah, the big, yeah. Well, the big news is, and it's still kind of secret, like we haven't publicly among magicians, of course it's known, but, uh, the oil magic festival, the Ontario Week of wander, and it's going to be, I mean, my God, I see it. It was started with the idea of how to be a handful of people here, but now, you know, you've been here the whole, the whole journey. It's like an incredible lineup of people. I can't even believe that said yes to it. I mean, wow. So it's October 24th to the 31st is a week long festival. Really? It's, um, the 25th, 26th. I was at like a convention, you know, that's happening. So, uh, we've got events scheduled for magicians that are just, you know, lectures and workshops and, and, and also there's time in there to see this community because it's, it's quite remarkable. We have a whole month long festival like Halloween. It's called monster month as a world acclaimed artists that has these huge skull. It's just incredible. And then the highlight of course is the gala shows, which we'll feature. Um, and I have of Canadian entertainers and magic and canvas star-studded international night is going to be, it's just, it's great. So the names we've got, Carissa Hendrix is coming and she is the Allan Slaight Rising Star, Canadian Rising Star Award Winner. How cool is that? And so she's coming, I mean, I'm so thrilled. Yeah. We've got Jay Sankey who of course is legendary,

Graeme Reed: Yeah, yeah. Canadian southern Ontario legend, right? Yeah, yeah.

Ryan Joyce: A Michael close who of course was legendary. We all, we, we found filmed masterclass with Michael close, so we've worked to get a chance to work pretty, pretty extensively. He's, he's a, he's a knowledgeable man. So we've got Michael close and of course there's Paul Rome. Hani is going to be in the line of, and he, I can't wait to meet Paul. I'm so looking forward because, uh, he, I mean, he's so multitalented right? He does so many different things. So I'm listening, I'm looking forward to listening to his, his, his talk and, and hearing what he has

Graeme Reed: and he felt like this crazy chaplain act, right?

Ryan Joyce: Yeah. I mean, that's the thing about it. He's one of those guys, I feel like whatever he does, he succeeds at. So like what, what the person to learn from. Uh, and so I couldn't believe he was available and he works a lot. Right.

Graeme Reed: And Anita opportunity to see him maybe like a classic Vaudeville Style Act. Yeah, right here. Right? Like you never, you don't really get that.

Ryan Joyce: It's going to be, it's just going to be great because no matter what he does, I mean he even has magic. Have you just chatting with him, you know, that he's got so much knowledge on the topic and of course he runs vantage. So he's just like, he's just totally connected to every element of the magic world. Like his knowledge, he's just oozing of knowledge. So, and Rick Merrill is coming and I just, I have, I love sleep. Like I'm a big fan of what Rick does. And of course he is a FISM award winner. So you just know that when he walks out stage, what he's going to do is going to knock you flat. So incredible effect. These available is great. And Steven for Gassy. I mean,

Graeme Reed: right home run.

Ryan Joyce: Yeah, my gas. It's going to be so incredible. And did you see a sun's special? I totally. Great. Yeah. Eddie reference referenced the whole magic scene in there. That was great. Yeah,

Graeme Reed: it's so fun. I was actually lucky to be at Majia festival one year when they brought him in as a surprise, which was hysterical. And there was a great moment with Stephen on stage that after a special was came up, this was, no, this was, but for this it would have been a couple of years ago. So this is amazing. So it's almost like he didn't reference that convention there, but I feel like he's done a couple of conventions with his dad now, Nate and I like, oh, so funny. So good. That's great. Yeah. I I I think, I think he's on magic fest again this year too.

Ryan Joyce: Really? Yeah, I think so. Oh, he's so, he's so funny. Like A, if any of us could just have one, 1000th of his comedic abilities, we would be, you can just tell he's, he's, when he's on stage, he owns the room totally. And it's, it's something that obviously he is, you can just duplicate over and over and over again. I mean he's just as, he's just a wizard when it comes to the showmanship. What a guy. I hope we didn't miss anybody. Um, because I mean you can see how each one of those people just on their own is incredible. Yeah. I think I cashed, I hope. I think that's it. But so that's the Oh wow. Magic fest. And then there's going to be a bunch of local acts as well too. Local magicians and things like that, featuring all kinds of people and all kinds of popups.

Graeme Reed: that's right. We've got Peter who's of course stage managing and running everything production wise, he's going to be doing a split bill with Owen Anderson, who's just a longtime friend is actually the very, one of the very first shows I saw as a kid, like a Christmas show that my parents took me to or when Anderson was, was the performer. So technically he's one of the very, very, very first, first magicians I've ever seen. The other one was at a birthday party and I hated, I think it was all clowns and face painting and I did not have a great experience. Oh, you,

Ryan Joyce: uh, like first magic experiences. Oh, like I've been trying to think about this. I don't know what it was. I feel like my first magic experience was just watching it on TV. I remember my grandparents always calling me to be like, hey, did you know the magic specialist can be on TV? She said to VCR, save all these tapes. And I still have them to, uh, like just all the magic specials. And I remember specifically worlds Grey's magic t was like the first one. Oh, there's your opening on that. That was the one with Alan Thicke is the host. Arthur comes out, produces a white tiger. Right, right. Um, yeah, he, they showed all the way around, then they instant replay and you can see the box. All the layer replays. Yeah. And that one had Jeff McBride doing the masks. Oh yeah. Oh, that one Jib shot where? Yeah, and he's bands from the stage and everything. Um, is that the one that closes at Penn and teller j and the bullet catch, I think to you, they all blur together. Yeah, I know some of them, but I feel like that was the last trick on that one too. It was Penn tillage and bullet catch another dangerous, see, there you go. Church. It shows you why people do some of these dangerous pieces though because, but there, but Penn and teller, if you'll listen carefully, they, right, right. You know, they say it's stupid.

They say it's stupid. They also never like, they make reference to everything. So it's not like they're saying they're gonna do a bullet catch kind of thing. And Yeah, they're very smart and clever. About what they do. This also had Paul Gruner doing the steel custom balls. Oh yeah. I think it had Williamson with rocky raccoon. Yes. Oh, of nascent. Jonathan was on there, I'm pretty sure during like the tape $20 bill. You know, I loved when Williamson was on the streets. We had, I can't you wish I first said it, it was, which is on the streets with rocky raccoon. I thought that was the best, that it wasn't world's greatest magic champions. yeah, yeah, yeah. I always thought, cause he, I mean you give him, they're like fuel for him. We're all people and I, and he's just so, so spontaneous. It's so outrageously awesome. Yeah. He among a couple were like at the top for me as a kid, totally wanted to be. I could. And then I realized as a performer I could never be that. You know what I mean? Like as I came in, Matt, King of Yes king between all the worlds creates magic teaching tricks. Yep. And you're like, oh, I can do have these tracks. This is all, but you can't be mad king and Jeff McBride with with I loved carbon emulation. Oh, I loved it so much. And of course David Copperfield for the showmanship, you know,

and Lance Burton was in the same category for the showmanship. Lansburgh does some really cool stuff. I even remember like a, the Greg Freeland vert act on Kripke course, that moment that shot, he's backstage ready to go on. That was like, I met the circus act like with the twister. So I was thinking of his bird act. Oh yeah. Then this shot, you can see his, oh, I loved that. It really gave kind of a peak behind. I remember Jason Byrne to Jason Baron was on world's greatest Magic to Oh yes. With the Plato. Oh yeah. That's so great. That moment is solid. I met Jason and airport and Saint Martin. I know Barbados actually. I remember this did have a lot of dangerous stuff because I remember the Lance Burton specials, there was always a big, he did like a roller coaster escape thing. Oh, right, right. Like, I remember as a kid too, he fought off like you need to distort fight on stage with Dakota churn really. And the candles and everything was great. Super Fun. The fun switch. But everything was always a little bit dangerous I think. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Edgy was, was definitely in, I guess that's kind of Disney edgy though wetlands parent was doing right. I was also on Reddit. Okay. So some of the discussions on Reddit that were really topical right now, I'd be curious, your input, um, is switch souvenirs. What are some of the tricks that you're working on

or that you like that involves giving souvenirs to an audience member?

Graeme Reed: So I am a big fan of souvenir magic cause I do a lot of strolling magic restaurant magic. So something, my set always has to finish with the souvenirs. Someone has to always take something with them because I think they need to have something so they can remember the magic or keep a little thing and they're going to talk about it. So like obvious go to would be just like ambitious card. Signed card is a good one. Um, I, my favorite thing right now is face off. It's an illusionist and you get, uh, two people to sign cards, like an anniversary waltz almost, you know, so you get to sign cards and then you rip them in half and they squeezed them in their hands and then, uh, when they open up their hands, you realize you kind of made a mistake and like they have half of each other's cards, you know, that's great. And then the cards are still stuck together and there's like no tape or glue

Ryan Joyce: the reactions. It must be solid when it's one of the craziest things ever. Yeah, yeah. That

Graeme Reed: or a new thing I'm starting to do now as a, having someone bend a coin in their hand. Oh yeah. Um, so I use the version, this version, it's like called expert, like expert, uh, from Penguin. Um, and yeah, you have a, I usually do with a kid and I ask them what the fear is. Superhero is put a bunch of change in their hands. You mark a coin with an x on it and you described to them my way, she got the change in your hand and squeeze it down. When you shake up the change in, squeeze it down again. And I want you to imagine that you can jam that change in that coin with the x on it causing you to like bend and then you have him shake it up one more time, squeezed down and then when they dumped the change on the day, there's one coin bent and I feel like a kid and even the parents and everyone around this drama moment. Yeah, no one understands how that works. Cause even like I'll watch the dad leave or someone like to try to bend a coin back with your bare hands or we can't do that. So

Ryan Joyce: yeah that's pretty impossible stuff and you guaranteed they will keep that for sure. Forever. Forever for sure.

Graeme Reed: And then also a well-designed business card is a great handout too. So I always make sure that they get my business card and people like the design of mine usually cause I'm a graphic designer so it looks sharp and flashy all the time. Um, so I think that's a key too. So it's almost like kids want to have it cause it looks fun. You want to keep it and that. So that's positive for your thing. Looks Awesome. Right? Yeah.

Ryan Joyce: I want to talk about logos. Let's talk about magicians logos. The challenge of the magician logo, the biggest challenges I see it is how would you come across as modern and magical but not be cheesy. Right. That seems to be the biggest challenge just in general for magicians. How do you go about that? Immediately? My first, my first thought is you don't put a magic wand or a top hat in it, right? I mean that's the simplest, but two magicians in the, the logo.

Graeme Reed: I think, uh, it depends on what level you are as a magician or how you're branding yourself. I guess for me, I don't have a set logo. I just use various different fonts and I'll represent my, you know, my name, which is Graeme Reed, Aka Grameen using in different ways, but it usually represents me still. Right. And I use that with a different font faces. Right. And I'll just choose the right font, that fits kind of thing I say. So I, I would relate that to like how MTV, they have the same logo but they changed the color and the texture and the placement of it all the time. But it still has the same logo face. So I'm not saying I'm MTV, I'm just saying it's that similar kind of idea.

Ryan Joyce: Yeah, diversity, I mean, yeah. Yeah. Logo. Technically the logo should be like just a black and white kind of simple vector. And this is basically you're, you're giving yourself a whole bunch of freedom because your identity is Grameen hazing, right. You don't have to work maybe as hard as someone that might be like Matt Smith. Right, right. So you don't have to, yeah. Your character, you can ooze it up as much as you want. But if someone has a very common name like I, my name is pretty common. Like I mean it's not necessarily, it's, it's two first names. It's two first names so it's easy to be, to be overly simplified. So I need to mind to stand out slightly and thankfully I have a short name. Did you ever have to, your name is pretty easy to use as well, but your, he is a kind of a combination pro. Did you ever think about changing your name ever for this show?

Graeme Reed: So like originally when I spelled grew amazing cause I spell it g r a e m a Z. I n g because my first name gram is spelled a e m e. Right. Which is kind of confusing for a lot of people but then I kept it confusing and originally when spell I dropped the one e and it was just like a amaze that I n g a but then I kept the weirdness of the e in there. So it was still my name mixed with the Graemazing. And then I thought about should I just switch back to my original name? Like Graeme Reed cause that's fine. Especially cause I'm kinda like closeup magician, mind reader. So Graeme Reed that kind of works. Right. Um, but I stuck with and cause I think it's still in my mind, my brand, the way I present myself as like magic kind of silly. We all get it silly. Uh, so my name's Mason, right? Yeah. And it still has my first name in it. So people kind of get, and I think, um, lately Graeme is now popular name with kids I've found. So uh, people now recognize Graeme, which is really cool, which is a first mainly in the demographic that I'm trying to hit, which is like the younger moms, well

Ryan Joyce: you're really sticking to the cause I know like all of us, we, when we stick to a certain brand it requires some commitment and you've kind of gone back and forth just like I go back and forth and designs and things. But one of the things about that nice by the way you're doing is it really exemplifies how to spell it. At least it puts a lot of focus on that because your website is, it wouldn't be when people search you, you want it to be kind of you. The first one they pop up when they find you. And so making that choice is at least, you know, easy sort of exemplifies rather than than hides it away in the corner.

Graeme Reed: Yeah. I do a multiple year else though. Like I do still have Graeme Reed, magic.com event magic.ca and then grazing.com right? Yeah. But that's all for like, you know, searchability reasons.

Ryan Joyce: Yeah. I'm definitely a big fan. I'm like a hoarder of domains. I've like, I don't know, and go daddy, there's like nine pages of them. It's ridiculous. But there's good marketing purposes to like for what? Like for the magic festival, I own three of them and depending on which one I can use Google analytics to basically tell me what source it came from. So for like anything, guerrilla marketing, I'm using o-wow.ca. So it's just easy to write on things and it's just bigger on smaller things. And so I know anything that comes from that domain through Google, the Google analytics, I've just got it labeled gorilla and then a and the other ones, there's basically print the pamphlets, the print material I want to see there, you know, how effective they are in comparison to the guerrilla marketing. And then of course the magic festival. That's the AA, the main site, which I couldn't believe it was available. Um, it's harder to track, but at least you can find where all the sources are coming from. And that applies to everybody because wherever you're marketing you've really got to understand you, you know, how to communicate to your, your demographic if you're using Facebook ads and such. So, so that's always fun to find out who's coming from where and be able to use that data to advance your efforts specifically to track all that data. Google analytics and I'm terrible. And then because the

one that I've stuck with who from my, my Tim Drake, my buddy Tim, early on in the game of SEO, back in the days where it was all low, like keyword stuffing and everything. Yeah, him down in the same font and a different color. Yeah, he got me on stat counter and I don't know why I've just, I it's been hard to change on that one. I always go to that one first and then I go to Google and I like switches just like it's just like who wants to read a book right now and then figure out all this math right now. I love math. I may be wrong, but is it hard to find out exactly what I wanted? Just super fast. So I go to stat counter and those are the two. I mean also Google's tools. Search console is important for finding ranking and you know tag managers in there. There's a whole bunch is a world of knowledge dive into for ranking in your academy.

Graeme Reed: And like both these tools are super duper easy just to copy a line of script basically and dump it in your site. Whether it's a wix or Squarespace, it's right as free and it's all free and they're all free to write at Google wants you to use. They're great tools, but that stack hanger and that add the Google analytics, it's an easy, just one code like line thing that you can just copy and paste and you rem saved, whether it's Wix, Squarespace or like any home-built thing, right? Yeah.

Ryan Joyce: The metrics is so essential. I mean, you can't know where you're going if you're not tracking it. Right? Like, I mean, we get so much information from stats, so I don't make it as visible. Don't have it like a counter at the bottom that shows 48 page views, you know, making it an actual invisible counter and use the Google service, which is pre requires some advanced skills per se. You gotta embed some code. So whatever you're using, did you look it up? They've got, they want you to do it and they have resources to allow you to make that process relatively simple. We're losing lights all over the place. This is not that one though. Yep. Let's do it. Let's just go, let's clap a different one on this. Ready? Oh, well we'll go, we'll get a bigger batteries for the next round. Yeah, that's fine. Um, that's what makes me feel like we're at a stranger things arcade right now. Does it? Yeah. I only made it into six episodes. Not that I didn't like the show. Just travel. Right? Yeah. Yeah. No, that's fair. So is it good as I've referenced mean it's good. Yeah, it's good. It's like eighties, right instance on ladies. Like, do you think magicians that like follow magic and magic and do you think they watch a lot of magic e stuff? Like, like that inherently has a magic five to I think all magicians are inherently nerds. Yeah.

Yeah. In their own like, and that's a pretty broad term nerd, right? So like in their own unique way might even just be magic nerds. Yup. Right. I like those in depth look, smart magic nerds. But I find a lot of like into video games, pro wrestling, cartoons, comics, board games, um, a lot of those nerdy kind of things and really into them too. I find a lot of us are obsessive. We have that obsessive nature about us collecting. Definitely tethering, have to have something busy yet I always have to have something busy. So I can think about something else to we thinking about things and creating stuff at creative already. Any. And if you learn about something new, if it's even, it's just like a little bit of a side hobby, like a, like maybe just cooking, like you really get into it, right. But kind of secretly outside of your magic friends and all that. Say like you'll just kind of do it on your own. Obsessive compulsive, you'll get the best books, the best cooking utensils for the kitchen and stuff. You'll go all in mine version of that is graphic design and video production and like all the extra nerdy things. Like I am wearing the biggest nerd badge right now possible. Um, but those are skills that have also helped to immensely in the career. Honestly. Like I, I remember the first time I thought branding to myself was a

way we had got this opportunity to go to the Middle East and we were, you know, flying over there in the back of the, the, my, one of my first international flights right in the back of the plane. They had one. Yeah. Those magazines that you flipped through. And there was like a Ritz Carlton ad and it like struck me and I was like, if I, how would I want my image to print jacked if it was in this magazine, if that's where I was hoping through and that was it. So I really emulated the idea that if I was going to have a visual representation of me, I wanted it to look expensive. Right. And I wanted it to look like this immediately. This person was a accomplished in a established. So that's when I ran with the unfortunate part about that, which I, I realized early on is that tends to lean towards thinner font.

Graeme Reed: Yes.

Ryan Joyce: You know, it was serifs, you know, and so I made a switch later with the logo that I have now. I made it about two years ago because a, as much as I love my old logo, the new one, I needed it to stand out bigger on smaller things. So that's one thing that's super important when people are in magicians or thinking about creating another logo is the visibility of it. I mean you don't necessarily, you don't have to have a fancy, like cliched

Graeme Reed: yeah.

Ryan Joyce: Element to it that says magician. You can just arrange the words nicely on top of each other and minimize the space. You know, I, I don't even, I'm a geek, but just by doing it, I don't geek out about the technology or the, the terms. I think it's kerning that current in the space between writers. Yeah. And that you can do that in Microsoft word. You can do that in Google docs. You can do everything. You just have trainer corral. Yep. Whatever. SORTA need, can't can vary. Right. That's one of those free things. You create logos on Canva

Graeme Reed: now. Oh, that's, Ooh. Yeah. Or wix wakes offers free logo. Wix is incredible. I've moved every single one of my, my sites over to two works, I think. Um, that's fuzz for functional blogs. Yeah. I designed logos for like 10 years for like various company and I still do it too. Yeah. It's was like that. But um, yeah, sometimes you can just get away with a simple font, font face and dig deep, like go a little further. Do some research, right? Like what we're entertainers. So look at Comedians, logos, look at, but whatever your brand, like maybe your, say you're a kid's magician, but you're kind of like a soup modern day superhero. So how to superheros logos. Look what a comic book club of Islam, but like today's comic book logos, cause you're not advertising to a kid in the 80s you're advertising to a kid in 2019 so what does the 20th like what is Justice League today look like? Not like our retro comic books. They're like, who are your average and that sort of thing.

Ryan Joyce: Yeah. That's really a great point to emphasize, I think is that you've got to see was the audience that you're seeking. You've got to really know what they're, where they're accustomed to because if it's too out of the out of field or in the design looks too modern or too outdated, then they'll immediately dismiss you just immediately,

Graeme Reed: right? Like you can't just throw up a Comic Sans Right or something like that. I've a big pit

Ryan Joyce: that is a, that is a pet peeve of mine. I've been ranting about that for ever and a day.

Graeme Reed: Yeah. And it's the same thing as the top hat in the wand. Like does your show really have a top hat and a wand, right? Yeah. Then maybe that's okay. You can have that in your logo if that's a huge part of it, right? But when you design a logo and then you look at something like even um, you know, like a health, health food store, he might just throw like a little leaf on it, right? So maybe just have an accent of a playing card or like a star or just something very simple. You don't Viv, but maybe you don't need the icon. Don't worry about the icon. Just have a tight face to looks nice. Make your first name bold your last name, not bold or flip it right. Try the other way. Right. That's totally fine.

Ryan Joyce: Whatever. Like the most unique element is of the name. That's where you dig in. You know, if there's a weird, if you've got a queue in your name, you can start play with the queue if you, you know, and that's, but realistically don't. If you're new, what magic is not essential to have a logo. It's just essential to have nice looking material because your main point is to just work and work as much as possible. And do you need a fancy logo to work? Not yet. I mean, and not only that, especially at the beginning, if your goal is to just get as many shows under their belt, you should be more focused on booking the shows than, than necessarily focusing on the logo. But you also, you might not know quite who you are yet too. So you don't want to attach yourself to a logo that you, you know, you need to commit a little bit to the logo. You can't change it every three years. You know, you're really, we can't change it frequently. You should really adapt to something are there. Otherwise people just become, you got annoyed with it and you're like no brand recognition and so you, you really got to commit. So give yourself some breathing time. Don't rush into a brand and a logo

Graeme Reed: at first if you want. Right? Like you couldn't look, just take a look in like your bedroom or on your desk or on yourself. Right? Like at the logos and, and the magazines and things you look at and see the style of art that you enjoy. Like if you are in escape order art and you know, I dunno, punk rock music and things like that right now there's like a certain style of the kind of grunge font mixed with thin type faces. There may be longer and stretched. Maybe you want to play with that that you want to do. Maybe you're into more of like on artistic, you know, natural hand drawn flowing kind of sand like sign painter kind of look like this. Kind of like, you know, a bit old baseball style thing. Maybe that's what you wear a lot of like you like these sports things. Maybe you put that in your logo. Try these like you know these hand painted fonts. Try that at first cause that's kind of a representation of you, right? Maybe the sports in that logo comes out and your pattern, everything like that. And the same as superheroes. Maybe you're doing like a bolder face that's a little more rigid kind of thing. Or like what you said when you first got introduced to like the high end you're going to do Sarah Fonts, these thinner like these watch fonts kind of things. Yeah, it's exactly that.

A key thing though, when you make a logo, you got to make sure that logo can be small and a business card and like big on a billboard, scalability, scalability. It's gotta be big and small. You don't want to make it too complicated and you gotta make sure that when it's really swollen, a business card that you can still read your name so they don't add too much extra cause they did the, you just need your team, you know your name. Right.

Ryan Joyce: And business cards I think are also very overlooked. I mean in reality the, the best option would be to ask for their number. That's the key. I mean that is the best option. But in the essence of giving someone a souvenir or a or some basic marketing, your business card really needs the most effective way to contact you and your brand. If your brand is your name, your, your set, don't worry about splashy magical logos. If you can sell magic on that with a stock image, there's definitely stock out there that you can put on the doesn't say 1982 magic show, right? I mean there is options to make it look magical without, but you just need to a

Graeme Reed: name and a phone number. Yeah. For me, I actually had on one, I have um, a reveal of one client on there. Uh, you know, it says just like hugely entertaining. I think it's really short. And then I offer three quick services that I do so that if I meet someone, it's just in mind what possibly I could do when they leave. Cause I find a lot of people that I meet and think this is just cause like you're, you're way more established. But when I meet people, they're kind of like, how can I use this guy that does card tricks walking about? So like on my card it says perfect for weddings, private parties and corporate events. Right. I hope that stems in their mind when they lean and look at it.

Ryan Joyce: Right. You're in the situation where you've got to kind of train your clients roe to use you and, and that's, yeah. Which means it's great cause you can be used in all sorts of occasions. Um, yeah, I'm sort of in the cruise market so it's sort of locked and loaded. It's just one single shot kind of a thing. And this is, this is, you know, we're, that also differs is because I don't really have to have that specificity. So let me ask you, would you ever consider multiple business cards that are just focused on each one specifically or should it be one card with everything on it separately? I am

Graeme Reed: right now, I don't know. Right now my current opinion is one ring to rule them all one card to rule them all just because it's easier and simpler. Um, but I also like I'm a graphic artists. I'm sure I changed. I will when I print up like a batch of my business cards and I get the next batch, I'll redesign it again. Uh, based on what I'm feeling. Cause I'm more, I like to experiment a lot of things right now. Right. But I still always have one business card and you're always represents me in the same way. That same quote, a gram read Aka Grameen saying at on Instagram. Cause I think that's the top social media. Maybe your Instagram is easiest 100 people to follow me here.

Ryan Joyce: I'm getting better, I'm trying to put some effort and do new with it

Graeme Reed: and then my website and then the perfect for the parties and all that. And that's all I have on there. And then a couple of graphics that remind you that this is a cool, like I tried to make my business card a little art piece so that people want to hold onto it. Right? I mean that's my main goal. Rarely. Yeah. Yeah. And that should be it.

Ryan Joyce: I mean if you have a card, it shouldn't be the initiative to get them to hold onto it. I mean really it should be as great as possible. And that usually boils down to a photo shoot, you know, I mean that is among the digital toolkit. If photo of yourself, something with a smile, I mean that's essential. And um, what else do you need? You need a business card, a photo, a website and a phone number

Graeme Reed: if it, yeah, phone number and probably, yeah, that's all you need. That's really all you need. Collect those reviews and put it all together real quick. If you're struggling with like, what do I do with my business card? I don't know what to do. Say you're like a sleek, modern mentalist. Think of you're like Danny Ocean from Ocean's 11. Right? His business card I think just said his name. Right. That's all it was. Right? So just make it like as nothing is possible on that card because that's how it cool. You should be in sleek, right? And it should be very like back door policy kind of thing. And I can't help but thank you for that.

Ryan Joyce: That was the case of there was an e and the name, I would immediately change it to one of those wavy alliance and just done with it, right? Yeah. One thing. And that'd be it. Sleek sleeping.

Graeme Reed: Cool. Would that be? Yeah. And if you're like maybe your um, like ocean, but edgy, cool. Now your card just has a Hashtag on it. Right? Like that's all it is. Right. Or just an ad. Like it's a little more modern and if you're a kid's magician these days, I don't know about the cartoon font, but like, you know, like I think superhero, I really think the superhero thing like does marvel, I think brand your suck cause you're, you have super powers now, right kind of thing and that's what you're doing. Right. That's a great resource because they have to communicate the essential message that we do. Yeah. Yeah. That's really, that's a great resource. Look at the, and not like the superheroes that you would have grown up with. Look at the superheroes that are out there and like the Incredibles justice league, all these modern things that are on Netflix. Look at how they brand and position their logos. Uh, I see a lot of kids, entertainers that still kind of do like this and like a nineties but like not a, no, no, not like a nineties pop culture vibe. It's like a nineties is not clip art as a, it's like, yeah, it's nineties clip art. It's like I have a, I have a big clip art. It's like clip art vibe. Yeah. Hi. I was just thinking about cliff bar magician. Go to Disney's website and see how their website's laid

out. See how it's spaced. See it. Like maybe there's just a little bit of an image and a little bit of ad copy. Yep. You don't have to overdo it. You know, with stars and spinning gifts, right. In magic wand things. Right. And if you're a mentalist guy, look at like, you know, GQ

Ryan Joyce: like a clothing or a fashion thing. Like spend time to make it sound great and make sure that it is proof. Read and use sources like Grammarly or a friend that is, you know, has that kind of mastery. I don't, so I resource some a bunch of people and so it makes sure it reads well and then that's it. You, I mean you share what you need to the basics of it and then don't make it flowery because of the only people you need to do is to help rank. And with that you just are, you're essentially choosing the, the where you are, you're like in your location and your, what you do and your shows and your name. That's, those are essentially the biggest category headers and your theme, your, your main page. And then everything around that supports those category headers and all those keywords and, and you're done. Don't make it, don't make it flowery

Graeme Reed: because nobody's going to read it. Yeah. I think the final note on logos. Yep. Your face isn't the logo. Like that's not your logo. Cause if you put your face a picture of you with your logo and you make it real small on a business card. Yup. You can't read your name that big. You want people to know your name, right? They've now met you. If they've got your business card, they've required your business card, they have met you, they've seen your face. Yup. Hopefully you've done a good job of introducing yourself and they've taken your business card for a reason. So they just need your name. They need to remember, you're right. Yeah.

Ryan Joyce: I just did a whole post on, actually I'm in additions, logos and some thoughts on that. So we'll put the link in the show notes as well. It's a topic that I enjoy discussing, which means I'm an extra nerd on this. I love talking about magicians logos and logos in general because it's, it's kind of an extension. I've always an extension of your brand. So real quick just to wrap this up, the difference between a logo and a brand,

Graeme Reed: a brand is more of like a, what you represent, I guess kind of like the emotions that you would represent, uh, the way that the audience would perceive you. So like, you know, these are like things like fun, energetic, uh, hilarious and maybe colors that are associated with that brand and stuff. Where a logo would be, say you wrote out your brand on a page, uh, it would be the sum up of your brand visually represented as like simplistic as possible. I think the, the, is that a good explanation with logo? Yeah, I guess, yeah, I've avoided

Ryan Joyce: is like the voice, the tone and you know, you can lay out a brand in a book. We were in our industry, you're familiar with the look book and it's basically, you know, all the color choices in the fonts and the slogans in the, all of that laid out in the patterns, all that stuff. All really pre preestablished that's so technically branded and a brand is just like an essence of the company as a whole. Usually you can, you can tell it in the tone of voice kind of thing. And the logo is like, I always looked at the logo, I as like, if your personality could cast a shadow, what would it, what would that shadow be? You know? And that's, that's your logo. It's magicians can have fake logos with just a pip, a card pip. Right? Like you just, all you gotta do drop it in, you know, magician. Boom. You're done.

Graeme Reed: Yeah. Easy. Yeah. Dot your eye. Get rid of the somehow. Figure a way to get the, I am your name and put the club there. Just don't call yourself a master magician. Cause if you're thinking about what your logo looks like. Yup. I and most of us are master magicians, so nope, don't do that.

Ryan Joyce: Then there's there, there's some pretty good thoughts on magician's logos. Thank you so much for listening in on our first episode of magicians talking magic. For all the links and resources, please visit magic-masterclass.com/podcast this has been episode one. Thanks for tuning in on our very first episode of magician's talking magic part of a touring tricks podcast. Let us know what you liked, let us know what you didn't like. We want to make this content for you and service the needs that you have while also keeping you informed on all the latest magic news. So make sure to subscribe on all the social platforms. This is Ryan. Joyce, thanks so much for tuning in. We'll see you on the next episode.






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